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In Your Honest Opinion, Is This Bad Poker Play?

Ken-Hil, 2008-04-14 08:05:12
I was in a live tournament where everyone starts with 6000 chips with 30 min blinds starting at 25/50. the blinds were 200/400 and i had 5200 chips left. I called with KJ, just one other player in the hand. the flop came 10 Q 7, rainbow. he bet 600, i called. on the turn came a 7. he bet 1000, i had to call but i didn't want to lose and only be left with 3000 chips, so i went all in. he thought about it for a while and called. He showed KQ and i hit the ace on the river to give me the straight. He was annoyed and said "as usuall, sh*t play wins." do u think it was bad play to go all in with only an up and down straight?

2008-04-15 02:13:02 Nathanael-Bloise wrote: I dont think it's a bad play. I either wouldve folded on the turn if I had decided not to chase or went all in like you did if I thought I had to gamble with my semi bluff (if you sense weakness on your opponent's end).

2008-04-14 09:18:45 Candyce-Kellogg wrote: Your opponent is totally wrong. His hand was roughly the same as yours and he was hoping for similar community cards as you play free five card poker draw for free play free five card poker draw for free. When he saw the pair of sevens, he probably thought you were holding a seven too - making 3 of a kind play real casino video slots with no download. He was forced to make a mjor bet on a pair of queens because he did not have the guts to fold. He was beaten on the river, and that's always painful. But well done anyway!

2008-04-14 15:17:17 Sabina-Sadley wrote: probably equally bad play on both parties. putting your tournament life on the line. you on a draw and him with one pair, even though it was top pair.

2008-04-14 13:09:20 Alonso-Pratt wrote: The only problem I see is calling pre-flop with KJ. Was there a raise pre-flop? With the blinds at 200-400 and you just having 5200 chips left the only thought is all in. You have to pick a hand or you just end up calling off all your chips, like you would have done if that Ace didn't hit. I know those open ended draws look pretty when the flop came out. Your opponent made a crucial mistake by letting you draw cheaply at the turn by only making a 1000 chip bet. Either way you look at it you won he didn't, just learn from this experience for next time.

2008-04-14 13:10:47 Marquis-Reese wrote: Yes, it was a bad play. It's worded that you went all in on the draw, not all in with the straight already.If you do not hit your straight you are left with King high. The only time you need to push all of your chips in the pot on a draw is if you are short stacked and about to be blinded out.You had enough chips and the blinds were low enough you could of folded and picked a better spot. But it worked out.The right play isn't always the best play, and the best play isn't always the right play.If you are going all in, its much better to have a made hand. Wait til you have a great hand and theres only the chance of 1 or 2 hands that beat you if you don't have the nuts.Also once the second 7 came out, that brings out the full house possibility. If you are going all in on a straight draw, and hes sitting on a full house, your drawing dead already because a full house beats a straight.You didn't know for sure at the time, but you had 8 outs. About a 20% chance. Thats not great odds. 1 in 5. That means if you make that same move, 4 out of 5 times you lose, statisticaly.

2008-04-14 10:14:15 Hans-Rahl wrote: you can get away from the hand with better than 80% of your stack, which is an okay result for a hand that you had no business playing. yes, i think it was a bad play. > your call of 600 was ok, because he made it fairly cheap to see the turn card, but you have invested 1000 of your meager stack and still have nothing. your play was bad. there are two 'right' ways to play this hand, and you managed not to do either. by the time you put your chips in, you had reduced your fold equity and your odds of winning. not completely horrible, but bad. in my opinion, the hand is just too weak, so fold it and pick a different hand to make a stand with. (i would argue, but hey, they're your chips.) but if you were going to make a move with kj, it should've been a raise, and it should've been followed by a post-flop all-in. that's no reason for him to be such a whiny little girl about it. you needed to make a move, and you obviously felt kjo was worth making a move with. the range of hands that would play the way you did and beat his kq is pretty tiny, so ultimately, your all-in looks like exactly what it was ... it's a fold hand, or, if you were feeling spunky, a 3xbb raise hand. the reason he had to think and think (and eventually call) was because he couldn't come up with a hand that matched your play. ------------------------------------------------------------------with regards to redneck .... after all, bad beats happen. a bluff. calling is completely out, given that you only have an 18% chance of surviving. (in fact, you only have 8 outs one time, even your k is no good.) it's an easy fold. redneck's opinion is also valid. > even as a bluff, your all-in was not that great. but to answer your question ... > with the blinds at 200/400 and you down below starting chips, you never should've limped with a hand as weak as kj. > 1000 to see one card and you can be fairly sure you're beat. the way you played it out was way too soft. it's hard to be specific without more details, but i'll give my opinion based on what you shared. and then you beat his 80+% chance to win.

2008-04-14 09:20:20 Nydia-Scott wrote: I think it was a bad play on your part (not horrible just bad), however, it can be justified. Your play should be partially based on what you think he has or how he's playing, remember knowing and reading your opponent are just as important as your cards. So he's betting so chances are he has something, i'm sure you put him on a pair. You must know that he has you beat at this point, and know that you must get lucky (either catching a card or him folding). Now this is where you can justify your play. You've been calling all along, he must know(or think) you have something. Your all in play caught him off guard most likely and he should have been very cautious. There were plenty of hands that could have beat him, and in most cases for that big of a pot, he should have folded. I mean, he's risking a lot (maybe all) of his chips with high pair and a King kicker. Not that strong of a hand. If you sensed weakness, it was a good play by you, however, know that you did get very lucky.

2008-04-14 09:18:37 Glenn-Tireman wrote: It was a good play. You have to take a chance or the blinds will eat you up. These guys that go all in thinking their pair will hold up are stupid. Another sign of a bad player is they can't take a loss without pissing and moaning. Make notes on that type. They don't know the difference between the final table on WSOP and a regular online game.

2008-04-14 09:44:02 Estefana-Sanforth wrote: Hard question to answer, obviously it worked. With that being said, I am assuming he was one of the blinds and there were no antes at this stage. So, if my assumption is correct there was 1000+600 in the pot when it was your turn to act on the flop, if you call for 600 that makes the pot 2200. You were 200 (one small blind at this stage) shy of getting 4 to 1 on your money, which is what you need to be mathimatically correct to make a call when you flop an open ended straight. You were getting close to the required odds to make the call, however, remember this, odds are there to determine long term gains and in a tournament, there are many who believe that odds don't always aply simply because short term (the duration of the tournament) gains are what matters. You need to get better odds for your money on action on the turn because your chances decrease with one card to come on hitting your outs. Here is why there is an argument against using implied odds in a tournament. You were obviously under average for chip stack in the tournament at this stage, you had less than the starting stack. I hope you were playing to win as opposed to surviving the bubble, and if you were playing to win, you needed to chip up by a good bit. At this stage, (once again assuming the antes had not kicked in) you had an M of less than 10, in other words you couldn't survive 10 rounds of blinds. The only mistake I would argue you made was not raising preflop if you were late in possition, or conversly limping with those holdings to see a cheap flop. When you are below an M of 10 and you 4 flush or hit an open ended straight on the flop you are going to be committed. You gambled and got lucky. With that being said, you had to gamble once your M got that low. Pot odds are out the window. An M of 10 is normally considered the point where you are in danger, and once that level is met, you need to act, and act quick. The reason the concept of M has been developed is to determine at what stage your chip stack has become too small to be an affective weapon and to determine at what stage you are in danger of being put out even playing solid poker. Because of what you had, I would say, other than just calling the blind, you made the right play, you should have raised. As for the comment of your opposition in the hand, forget about it, while you obviously didn't know whether you played it right or not at the time, you did play it right. I would suggest you read Harrington on Hold'em (all volumes) which is by far the most in depth work on proper tournament play.

2008-04-14 14:33:10 Ian-Wilo wrote: all of these answers suck just like your play. i wont analyze it like the others -i will just put you in the ranks of donkey and fish. if you had to ask if it was a bad play it only confirms this.

if i were your opponent, i would rule out kk and aa since you called pre flop and on the flop print out instructions on how to play draw poker.
you, again, neglected to mention another important piece of information: what kind of player is your opponent?
the only hands he could have (reasonably) lost to were aq, qt, tt or 77.
you were 4:1 to win at this point play real casino video slots with no download.
is he tight enough that a push here would give you enough equity?
turn: this is really read-dependent.
you also neglected to mention the size of your opponent's stack, a significant piece of information, but i assume you he had you covered.
2000 chips still gives you 5 bets, but you were willing to risk that situation (your whole tournament life, actually) on a 5-1 shot.
what is his range?
since there was only one other player, i'm going to assume the small blind folded and the kq was the big blind, which would make the pot 1000 pre flop.
if you have valid enough reason to believe you have fold equity with an all in here (which seems unlikely; the pot is now 3200; you're giving him 2:1 odds), then i would say it's a highly risky but decent move.
aggressive?
so, again, just looking at it mathematically (since you didn't tell us about your opponent), yeah, i'd say it was a pretty bad play.
i'd even argue making a raise here, since you are (presumably) in position and if you hit your straight, you could be getting some nice implied odds.
the call on the flop was understandable.
you didn't mention the size of the pot.
you say you called w/ kj so i'm going to assume you didn't have blind position.
a better move would have been to push on the flop if you thought you could take it or just to call here play free five card poker draw for free.
the board showed no possible flush draws, only straight draws.
loose?
is he willing to bet out of position on a mediocre or drawing hand?
paired 7s on the turn isn't going to scare someone with a made hand.
you were getting the right price.

2008-04-14 13:38:30 Florida-Wilo wrote: what did you put your opponent on? what did you want to have happen when you went all-in on the turn? if he would fold say one third of the time you have fold equity. it depends on what you think the other player has and what the odds of him folding to your raise. perhaps you put him on a 10 and figured he would fold one-half of the time? bad play is just an interpretation. is it a bad poker play to semi-bluff with outs?

2008-04-14 17:25:43 Jackeline-Baughman wrote:

calling with KJ preflop with 12 big blinds was questionable to begin with
the 600 flop bet, calling 600 into a pot of 1600 i assume gives you 1600/600 or 2.7:1 odds which is close to correct odds on a straight draw so it is okay.
It leaves you with 4200 and the pot stands at 2200
the turn card is a blank, he bets 1000.
the pot is now 3200 so you are getting 3.2 to 1 odds.
The odds of you making your straight is 8/44 or worse than 5 to 1.
So the pot was not laying the correct odds.
So calling is bad
pushing, like you did, is okay though.
Because you have decent fold equity.
If he will fold 50% of the time here, then 50% of the time you win 3200.
50% of the time he calls.
18% of the 50% you make your straight and win 660082% of the 50% you lost 4200
do the math now.50 * 3200 = +1600.18 * .50 * 6600 = +594.82 * .50 * (-4200) = -1722add them up1600 + 594 - 1722 = +472
so if going all in will get him to fold 50% of the time, it is a good play
so overall, i would say it was fine

2008-04-15 14:18:52 Teodoro-Catlay wrote: probably not a long term strategy,but hey,do you care? you won this timefree poker bonushttp://www.everestpoker.com/S15LMU/